Disney is creating a World of Haves & Have-Nots

[faline]

Beth, I agree with you. Over the years, Disney has changed a lot. There was a time when no-one planned more than a few things for a Disney vacation - where to stay and, perhaps, one of the dinner shows. Everything else typically happened after you got there. Everyone stood in line for each ride - whether it was a short line or a long line. One could choose to wait in the line or skip the ride.

Along came advanced dining reservations and fast pass. Suddenly, everything needed to be planned. Still, many folks paid no attention to Disney dining. They went to the rides and attractions and grabbed a burger or hot dog along the way.

Then Disney introduced "free dining". Now, so many folks were booking table service meals, everyone had to plan their meals far in advance - getting up at 6 a.m. or earlier to get the best reservations; fretting when Cinderella's Table or Chef's Mickey proved elusive. Two unexepected consequences arose. Folks booked multiple reservations at the same time so they could pick and choose which they wanted at the last minute and a sort of black market of dining reservations at popular spots arose which, in turn, led Disney to require securing reservations at popular spots with credit cards.

Fast pass came along. Pretty cool for those who knew how to use it. New strategie were developed by those in the know (Is someone who is a frequent visitor a "have" while those who didn't know how to use the system and, therefore got on fewer rides a "have not"?) to grab fast passes early for the popular rides. Thought was even put into the order in which someone should try to obtain fast passes (Should I go for Test Track or Soarin' first?).

Fast pass plus is a new system. I'm not sure if I'm in favor of it or not. I'm sure it will have some unintended consequences - most everything does. But I'm also sure folks will learn to work with it.

Still, in the end, Disney World is an amusement park. And, like Beth said, not everyone will be able to afford to spend time in Disney World.

Guess I've rambled along long enough!!

[SBETigg]

It's a Have/Have-Not World not of Disney's creation. But Disney used to be just one park and two very expensive resorts. That's when I started going. People who couldn't afford those resorts stayed elsewhere and made the drive. People who could afford those resorts had a whole lot more perks than those who couldn't. It was the way it was when WDW opened. It's a resort business. It pretty much operates on a have/have not system anyway. From day one to the bitter end.

Over the years, they decided it was in their best business interest to expand to more parks. Then to expand to adding hotels in different price ranges. Which, arguably, made it easier for families at different income levels to enjoy WDW in a way that they couldn't before. There are people who can't even afford a Disney vacation, true (without even going into FP). But as far as staying on or off site, with the Value resorts, for a vast majority who can afford to vacation, most can pretty much afford to stay on site (I realize there are exceptions). Which means that any perks that go to resort guests are not really about have/have not. It's about if you choose to enjoy your vacation on Disney property or choose to stay off-site (usually for the same price or more).

Not to say that there are not people who scrimp, stay offsite at the lowest possible price, and bring bag lunches into WDW. I would imagine that Disney would find a way for people who are not resort guests to enjoy FP+ anyway, just because there are so many FL residents they aim to please. They know their fan base. Let's see how it all unfolds before we get alarmist about have/have not. Even so, I don't see two hour lines forming for the majority of attractions with few exceptions.

[mickclub1955]

For what it is worth, I don't like the idea of having to pre-plan for fast pass, or that you only get 3 per day. It's bad enough get advanced reservations for meals and for which park to go to on what day. Why give myself a stroke trying to figure out what attraction is worth the fast pass and which ones are not. For those saying Walt would be rolling in his grave. Walt wouldn't even know what fast pass is. It was only created within the last decade or so. It was very convenient and was a God send for the long lines, but as with all good things, this too has now passed and we most likely will have to go back to standing in long lines. I think after a while it will be evaluated and it will change again. Maybe for the better and maybe for the worse.

[TheVBs]

Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself!

[Stu29573]

Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself!

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to offend you. I guess I get to where I feel I'm not being heard and I start jumping up and down and yelling like a little kid. I feel some people jut like to yell at anyone who doesn't toe the company line.

The reality is that I do see the value going down. I used to dream about going and my next trip, but I am realizing that due to my wife beiny out of work since 2010, and the fact that I work for the public schools, I probably am never going to get to go back. I don't see Disney caring about people like me. No, we have cancelled our grandkids' first trip. Not Disney's fault....or problem. I know what it feels like to go from being a "have" to a "have not."

Anyway, I probably shouln't even be on here any more. I'm sorry if I offeneded you. It won't happen again.

[Arielfan98]

I have a little different viewpoint. Never mind the FP costs or incentives, guests have always had a pay a pretty hefty price of admission to Disney's theme parks. For every one of the many, many families that can barely afford park admission (and a cheap motel), there are 10 times that many families (or more) who can never even dream of a Disney vacation because of the basic costs of theme park admission alone.

Does that mean Disney has created a "caste" system of families who can afford to visit Disney parks and those who could never afford it? I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But the world has always had haves and have-nots. You could already say that the classification of Disney's resorts is already a "caste" system. You know, the poor stay at the values, the middle class at the moderates and the wealthy stay at the Deluxe hotels. Do guests who can only afford to stay in a the All-stars resort feel "inferior" to those who stay at the Grand Floridian or Polynesian resorts? Maybe so, but I'm just happy to be there at the dinky All-Star Sports motel.

I don't like Disney's "money grab" tactics any more than anyone else, but I'm still grateful that I am one of the "haves" who can afford to take my family there once in a while. I just don't buy the argument that the implementation of a "pay-for-play" FP system will make anyone feel "inferior" or that it will be a disaster. Life is not "fair" or "equal" anywhere else in the world and it has never been "equal" at WDW either. LIfe (and fun at a theme park) is too precious to let someone else with more money spoil it for me.

I agree with joonyer on this one. I have always stayed at All Star Music because it doesn't make sense to spend more than $120 a night or more for a hotel room when park admission is so much money. My dad always said that we only stay in the room for a bed to sleep on and a shower which is true so even if we did have the money for a deluxe resort there would be no point. However, the DP does make it seem more of a caste because deluxe resort guests can get the free TS plan when it is offered and those staying at value resorts can only get CS DP for free when it is offered. Now going back to the main topic as posted by the OP. Fortunately, my family is always capable of affording a week at Disney World once a week every year so this FP system wouldn't be a problem for us. However, I did once go to Universal and witnessed the discrimination between regular park guests like myself and those who had purchased Universal's FP system. It was pretty unfair in my opinion but as my favorite quote says, "Life isn't fair, it's just fairer than death that's all". Which is true. Nothing in life is really fair and I'm sure with Disney continuing to grow and grow as a business they will not stop at any strides to continue growing. It just seems like people being able to afford and spend more money than they used to Disney is taking advantage of that. And quite frankly I've been hearing a lot on Intercot that people have been staying off-site more now which surprises me. I worry the prices will begin to soar so high that eventually my family won't be able to afford a Disney vacation.

[Quadstriker]

It was pretty unfair in my opinion but as my favorite quote says, "Life isn't fair, it's just fairer than death that's all".

~The Princess Bride by William Goldman. Tremendous book. And it always surprised me that they didn't work that quote into the movie somehow.

You just shot up to the top of the list on Quadstriker's Intercot Power Rankings.

[TheVBs]

Ok, now I feel bad. Stu, that was really more of an exasperated post than an offended one. I didn't mean to make you feel bad, and I certainly didn't mean to make you feel like you shouldn't be here. Also, I wasn't referring to just your posts.

I just wanted to get across the point that there are (at least) two groups here on Intercot, having different WDW experiences, both expressing valid opinions. No one can tell another person whether they're getting good value for their own money, that's a very individual decision.

And apologies in general for straying so far off topic. In response to the OP, I don't think this is a new situation. People here have pointed out many past cases where you get more if you pay more at WDW. Now, if FP is taken away from people staying off-site, I think that would be a mistake. Because they'd be taking something away from some guests, instead of offering an additional perk to on-site guests. But it doesn't sound like that's what they're doing.

We always stay on-site at a value resort and we're happy with the perks that provides us. If free dining is offered, the QSDP works for us and is a good deal. Now, if we were to pop for a more expensive room, we would certainly appreciate being given more perks. That's really how I view it. Disney isn't taking away from people who spend less, they're offering little extra thank-yous for people who pay more. I think that's a great thing!

If we ever have to stay off property to make a WDW vacation happen, I certainly wouldn't expect the perks the on-site guests get. I wouldn't expect Disney to provide my transportation from the airport to a hotel that isn't theirs, or expect them to pick us up and take us to the park, or transport our purchases to a non-Disney hotel, etc.

And we absolutely view being able to take any kind of vacation as a pure luxury. When a phrase like "haves and have nots" comes up, I think in terms of being able to put food on the table, not a resort vacation! I just think that's a bit of a skewed perspective. And that doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic about being priced out of a trip. There are lots of trips we'd LOVE to be able to take, but will likely never be able to afford it.

[azcavalier]

My family has been going to WDW just about every year since 2000. We've taken other trips as well...two years ago we took a five day whirlwind trip to D.C./Gettysburg/Upstate NY/Niagara Falls/Cleveland-and-then-back-home. People keep talking about how Disney is "pricing them out". Yes, the tickets have gone up a little, but as far as I can tell, nothing else has....not really. Adding FP+ doesn't increase the price of a Disney trip. It *changes* the logistics of a Disney trip, but it doesn't make it less affordable.

I guess we look at it this way. My wife and I were discussing taking the kids to NYC for a few days. Just a few days is all. We can hop the Amtrak from Lynchburg all the way to Grand Central Station for $50 per person, each way. That's not bad. No gas, no parking. Makes it $500 total, not including food. Lodging in NYC isn't cheap...I mean, if you want to not worry about the cleanliness of the room or your safety. There are five of us...most NYC hotel rooms won't sleep five. That means that i've got to get two rooms. In the city, at a discount, you're looking at $230 at a minimum, per night. So, $500 a night.

What would we do there? Go see the sights...Empire State Building, Ground Zero memorial, Statue of Liberty, Central Park. Most of that is free, minus transportation costs. I would love to take my kids to one broadway play. Tickets for five of us to see Annie (mid-range seats)? Almost $900.

So, my total costs so far are $1500 for hotel, $900 for one play, and $500 to get there and back. Not including any food or souvenir shopping at all, it's almost $3000 for a three night/four day trip to New York City to see mostly stuff that's free. Throw in food for five in New York, and that's easily $3500-4000.

Guess what I can do for $4000? I can spend seven days at WDW. Unless we're going camping, or staying with relatives in some other city while we're visiting, WDW is still a really good value. Yes, the prices have changed some over time. And they will continue to change. But, i'm sorry, the value still can't be beat for a vacation destination.

[mcjaco]

I've been going to WDW since I was 8 months old. We went every year until I was a Senior in high school, not once have we ever stayed on property. I've had over 30 visits in 38 years.

So to lump those whose stay on property as "more in the know" than those who who do not as "less knowlegable" is ludicrious. I know lots of people that have never stayed on property and go mutliple times a year. In fact, one couple runs one of these most popular theme park websites in the internet. It's about how YOU decide to prepare for a Disney trip.

Sometimes self proclaimed Disney geeks are the worst at feeling entitled when visiting the parks, which is where I think a lot of this griping is coming from.

After 38 years of visitng WDW and DL, I still feel the value is there, and continue to do so. We don't go every year anymore, but we look forward to every trip. It's a vacation, if you're planning every minute detail to get the most bang for your buck, you're missing the point. Sit back, relax, and enjoy.

[Dulcee]

The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

[lawgirl]

Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself!

Thank you so much for this! I've been "blasted" a few times by people saying I'm "drinking the Disney juice" or whatever clever things they say...I can't help it. We love going, always have. always will. Good words of wisdom you have offered!

[lawgirl]

The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

Again, this is how I feel as well. It's not a right to vacation at WDW...it is a privilege. And its not like WDW is now banning anyone who doesn't stay on property from riding the rides, right? Sometimes (even though we always stay on property) if I haven't planned that well, we end up waiting in long lines to ride something we really want to. While I may wish that I had the foresight to get a FP for that particular time, I don't know that I will view people in the FP+ line as being superior to me. I don't know, maybe I'm just a patient person and don't mind waiting sometimes. As far as the "haves/have nots" argument, I personally don't see it that way, but am sorry its stirring up those feelings in people. In my mind, if you are on a computer complaining about making reservations and having to wait in line for a WDW vacation, then you are already part of the "haves". Guess its all in your perspective though. I don't plan on ever pointing out to my kids the "privileged" people in the FP+ line and holding them out to be superior to us. If someone makes you feel inferior or part of the "have nots" because they get to be in the FP+ line, then I think there is a bigger underlying issue.I don't understand that way of thinking, and I don't plan on instilling that in my children. We have food, clothing, shelter, and love...anything above that is a blessing and a privilege. But that's just me.

[AdventurerKim]

I love going to WDW! I still love it! It is a place of happiness and family vacation memories that I will always love. Sure, some changes Disney has made over the last 20+ years, like the elimination of rides I loved as a kid, getting rid of Comedy Warehouse and Adventurers Club, rising prices on everything, the new refillable mug system, and even fast pass + which while only being tested doesn't sound good to me, we just don't or won't take advantage of these changes. There are some rides we don't ride. We don't go to AK except to eat at Yak and Yeti because we don't care for the park. I won't use the refillable mug system because it's not worth it; we don't get that much to drink at the hotel to make it worthwhile. Plus, I have a cabinet overflowing with Disney mugs so I don't need anymore. They should use a bar code system for regular/returning guests like they do (or did) at Blizzard Beach to use previous mugs. I'd use that. I may not use fast pass+ as I don't want to plan my WDW vacations down to the second. We go wherever the day and mood takes us.

Despite all of this, we will still go to WDW because we love it, and it's worth it to us. Some day that may change, but for now, our yearly visits will continue.

[BIGDOG]

This is a great post and I really like reading the ones who oppose and agree with Disney’s new changes. In my case being someone who was able to go to Disney for 10 or 14 days on a wimp years ago I guess made me a “HAVE”. Now with economic changes and losing my job of 19yrs with no advance notice and just getting by makes me a “HAVE NOT”. I must say even when I went in past years I never used a fast pass machine ever. We always looked at it as we are on vacation what’s the hurry and we did things off the cuff and never liked to plan anything; even hours ahead. Now at 52 yrs of age will I ever get back to Disney I don’t know I would like to think I can get back before I am too old or gone but who knows. I don’t let it keep me up at night too many other things do that already.
As for the value of a Disney trip decreasing: Yes it has to me. I would imagine it has also to a lot of the people who are posting on this site even if they will not admit it.
EXAMPLE: If you were to have a ‘YOUNGER’ family save money for a year to take their first trip to Disney World they would say it was wonderful and was well worth the value and sacrifice of the savings. In my opinion that would be because it was their first trip. Have that same family do that again and again for a few years and ask them after each trip they would say the value has decreased because; it is not NEW to them anymore.
Let’s face it we all are getting older things are not as grand as they use to be when we were younger.

[joonyer]

Again, this is how I feel as well. It's not a right to vacation at WDW...it is a privilege. And its not like WDW is now banning anyone who doesn't stay on property from riding the rides, right? Sometimes (even though we always stay on property) if I haven't planned that well, we end up waiting in long lines to ride something we really want to. While I may wish that I had the foresight to get a FP for that particular time, I don't know that I will view people in the FP+ line as being superior to me. I don't know, maybe I'm just a patient person and don't mind waiting sometimes. As far as the "haves/have nots" argument, I personally don't see it that way, but am sorry its stirring up those feelings in people. In my mind, if you are on a computer complaining about making reservations and having to wait in line for a WDW vacation, then you are already part of the "haves". Guess its all in your perspective though. I don't plan on ever pointing out to my kids the "privileged" people in the FP+ line and holding them out to be superior to us. If someone makes you feel inferior or part of the "have nots" because they get to be in the FP+ line, then I think there is a bigger underlying issue.I don't understand that way of thinking, and I don't plan on instilling that in my children. We have food, clothing, shelter, and love...anything above that is a blessing and a privilege. But that's just me.

[mcjaco]

Let’s face it we all are getting older things are not as grand as they use to be when we were younger.

I am a firm believer that this the main culprit for our vision of WDW parks as we get older. We're wiser and see things much differently than we did when we were younger.

I'm anxiously awaiting my kids first visit next week to see how the magic impacts them.

[Brooklynos]

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there

I agree with this post in the idea that the wool has not been pulled over my families eyes, we just still really enjoy our Disney vacation for our moneys worth. There is no place like WDW for us and until it gets to the point that we cannot afford it, or are not willing to give up some activities at home to go we will go and have a great time.

Some will feel this affects their value and rightfully so, I just hope it doesn't put out some of the Disney torch for them if they want to continue to vacation there.

Plus, I won't miss the mad dash to TSM just to find out that our return time is 5 or 6pm when we are eating dinner and cant ride it. We'll embrace this and make the best of our trip.

Plus this is the best place to get all this frustration/opinions out. Love us some Intercot! Hopefully, those that it bothers will get the part that really bothers them off their chest and have wonderful vacations fastpass+ or not.

[BIGDOG]

So the million dollar question is :
What can we ( Disney veterans) do to bring back the magic from our earlier year visits?

My family has tried

1. Going at different times of the year.
2. Book packages at different WDW resorts.
3. Bring friends whom are first timers along to share their magic.
4. Find things that have never been done before if possible.
5. Do shorter vacations vs. longer vacations.
6. Visit your least favorite parks first and your favorites last.
7. Go to attractions outside Disney.

What else can you think of?

[Aurora]

So the million dollar question is :
What can we ( Disney veterans) do to bring back the magic from our earlier year visits?

My family has tried

1. Going at different times of the year.
2. Book packages at different WDW resorts.
3. Bring friends whom are first timers along to share their magic.
4. Find things that have never been done before if possible.
5. Do shorter vacations vs. longer vacations.
6. Visit your least favorite parks first and your favorites last.
7. Go to attractions outside Disney.

What else can you think of?

Go less often. Honestly, we used to go very often until 2004, then we spaced out our trips over every few years (by necessity, not desire). This really keeps it fresh for us.