This is just wrong, are they doing this in your school district?

[Ian]

Well this is not a good representation of progress or us lagging behind. The information comes from standardized test scores which really don't tell the story. Especially since in US we test everyone in other countries they only test their high achieving students who they feel are deemed fit to be educated futher.

Do you have any hard data to back that up? I've never heard or read that from any source I've ever reviewed on the topic.

Everything I've ever read says we spend more and get less. In fact, the main study I looked at that drew that conclusion analyzed only students in the U.S. So how other countries test their children wouldn't even have entered into it.

[JPL]

There is lots of data to back it up in some of the educational journals. I actually did a research paper on this topic in Grad School. America is the only country that tests every student yet we compare our results to countires who don't test every student and say we are failing.

The problem with the system in America stems from the tests since most teachers are stuck teaching strictly ot these tests and the standards they cover. Add to this the need to try and send every student to college, inclusion classrooms which IMHO help no one. Let's also not forget that we are more worried about a students self esteem than if they are actually learning and you end up with a system that is designed to fail in some ways.

Let's take a look at the inclusion classroom and you have such a wide range of ability levels it makes it almost impossible to gear a lesson to all the different students. So in essence you really don't help the students that need it and you either lose the average student or hold back the gifted students. In other countries classrooms and programs are still structured based on abilities of the students. Some where along the line we lost the idea of sending students through vo-tech programs so they can become a successful part of society and decided they all must go to college and sit behind a desk.

[Ian]

Jeff, I agree with everything you said about some of the main classroom issues. You're spot-on, IMO.

[RocknBev]

In fairness, though, you need to compare what we spend per student with what other countries are spending for much better results. Comparing defense spending with spending on education is apples and oranges. A B-2 bomber costs like $3 billion ... defense is expensive.

According to what I've found, the U.S. spends the third most money per student on secondary education in the world (behind only Swizerland and Austria) and yet our students consistently lag far behind less developed nations that spend signficantly less than we do.

I didn't mean to make a direct comparison. I know military equipment is expensive. Education is expensive as well but it is apparently an easier sacrifice as we are noticing all of the country.

As for the comparison with other countries, we can't really do that either. JPL is right. Other countries only educate the top notch kids in secondary schools and it becomes highly competitive to get in those schools. We educate everyone. A large portion of our educational budget is also spent on special needs students who may or may not even be able to pass a minimum competency test. That is unheard of in other countries....(which is why so many want to come to America)! But it hurts when we are compared to other countries because everyone takes the tests...(even those Severe Mentally Disabled must be tested for progess for NCLB).

[Ian]

Well I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the U.S. educational system, even though I have read extensively on the subject because it's of great interest to me.

But if those things are true (and I have no reason to believe they're not), then it sounds like we need to change process not dump more money down the drain.

One other question for you guys ... If it's just a process issue as you and Jeff say, how come U.S. students do so poorly at the university level when compared against students from other countries? Is it the same thing ... only top students from those countries are going to universities, they're getting top notch, focused education at the secondary level, etc.?

[murphy1]

This is a very interesting discussion, am learning from each of you. One thing I really feel happening more and more is that these other countries push more of the math and science. Not everyone is cut out for that (me in math, I went up to Algebra in school), but give me anything with English and I loved it, as well as creative learning like Humanities. I also wonder genetically if people who are Asian or certain decents are more wired to be good at math and science or if it is their culture that pushes this (I don't mean this to sound like stereotyping). I don't think I could get the higher level math and science even had I been pushed when I was younger (I was hard enough on myself as a student, my parents didn't have to be). My dh is an Engineer (Masters level), but is artistic, I think that was a good point that someone brought up. Look at the Disney Imagineers.

[Ian]

I had this big fancy post written up and then I realized ... I mostly don't know what I'm talking about and should probably keep my opinions to myself.

I think there are areas the public school systems need to improve (Jeff touched on a few of them) and I'll just leave it at that.

[SteveL]

With all of the stuff you read about teachers' contract negotiations, class size, classroom aides, free time, etc, I just can't help but be amazed at the jobs the nuns did with 75 kids in a room, no aides, no school nurses, and no substitute teachers when they got sick.

[vicster]

With all of the stuff you read about teachers' contract negotiations, class size, classroom aides, free time, etc, I just can't help but be amazed at the jobs the nuns did with 75 kids in a room, no aides, no school nurses, and no substitute teachers when they got sick.

Our education system is a lot different these days. "No Child Left Behind" puts a lot more responsibility and time on the teachers, therefore, an aide is needed especially with special needs children. Also more help is needed with ELL children in a classroom. School nurses in our area need a four year degree. It's no longer just dispensing aspirin to sick kids. They have to change feeding tubes, breathing tubes, etc.

[murphy1]

Our education system is a lot different these days. "No Child Left Behind" puts a lot more responsibility and time on the teachers, therefore, an aide is needed especially with special needs children. Also more help is needed with ELL children in a classroom. School nurses in our area need a four year degree. It's no longer just dispensing aspirin to sick kids. They have to change feeding tubes, breathing tubes, etc.

Most of my friends who are teachers are not big fans of NCLB.

[vicster]

Most of my friends who are teachers are not big fans of NCLB.

I don't think you'll find too many teachers who are fans of NCLB.

[Mickey'sGirl]

America is the only country that tests every student yet we compare our results to countires who don't test every student and say we are failing.

This is not true. In Ontario, all students are tested, regardless of their academic prowess. My autistic 10 year old sits through the same standardized tests as everyone else.

We have not had a school nurse since I was in grade school -- but our teachers are required to have First Aid training.

[Ian]

I don't think you'll find too many teachers who are fans of NCLB.

I keep hearing this, but I really have never seen a teacher articulate exactly what the issues are with it.

I'm not saying NCLB is good ... in fact, it appears to be worthless based on the results produced ... but I have to say, as an outsider looking in, it seems to me like teacher's don't like it simply because it puts some measurement around their performance.

It might not be perfect, but personally I would rather have some form of measurement, no matter how flawed, to show me what I'm getting for my tax dollars. I'll take a flawed measurement system that is at least consistent in its flaws over no measurement at all and a black hole sucking in my money with little result.

[Princess'Mom]

[QUOTE=Ian;1856061black hole sucking in my money with little result.[/QUOTE]

So that's the noise I've been hearing! Ian, I totally agree with you. Well said.

[DizneyRox]

Ian,

I do think you're right. My problem with how the school sytems work is this whole tenure thing. They just aren't used to having to be responsible for their performance. They really need to do away with that. It would enable them to keep costs lower by getting rid of these dinosaurs that can't/won't change and get new blood in the schools.

BUT, another problem is the lack of proper funding for the program. Schools are being forced to spend a lot of money working on kids that will never score well. It's money that could be spent on other things.

[Chandlerella]

The main reason most people don't like NCLB where I am is because it is based on the premise that everyone can succeed. The plain truth is that not everyone can, and not everyone even cares too, but as a teacher I am expected to eventually reach 100%. It just isn't possible. Each year we are measured not simply by whether we meet a certain benchmark, but whether we improve. Improvement is great when you are low, but it is difficult to achieve year after year when you already have high score. For example, say your attendance rate is 94% this year and next year it is 93.9. Your school doesn't meet the benchmark, even though another school went from 52% to 53% and are considered to have made it.

[VWL Mom]

I keep hearing this, but I really have never seen a teacher articulate exactly what the issues are with it.

I'm not saying NCLB is good ... in fact, it appears to be worthless based on the results produced ... but I have to say, as an outsider looking in, it seems to me like teacher's don't like it simply because it puts some measurement around their performance.

It might not be perfect, but personally I would rather have some form of measurement, no matter how flawed, to show me what I'm getting for my tax dollars. I'll take a flawed measurement system that is at least consistent in its flaws over no measurement at all and a black hole sucking in my money with little result.

NCLB may not be the best solution but it basically saved my son. IMO Ian is correct, many teachers do not like it because it means they have someone watching their performance and they are being held accountable.

Before NCLB districts thought nothing of paying to send kids to special schools because they couldn't be bothered with them, it was an easy out for them. Now that NCLB requires test scores from in district and out of district to be included thereby making the home district responsible for the children regardless of their placement. It is making some districts rethink their processes.

It is guaranteeing an education for all. It allowed my son to return to district where he has flourished. He has been fortunate to have some amazing teachers and is now a straight A student. His ASK test scores have gone from below average to above average. He was invited to take the SAT Math test (and he is in 7th grade) because of his scores. There is a shared aide in his Language Arts class but the cost is far less than the $45000 per child per year the district was paying for out of district schools.

[Mickey'sGirl]

Why don't people ever complain when gifted children are in the classroom? Shouldn't they be shipped off and hidden away in a secret school too? Oh no....that's right....they don't tarnish a teacher's/school's image do they?

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.

The amount of intolerance displayed here is astounding.

[Princess'Mom]

Why don't people ever complain when gifted children are in the classroom? Shouldn't they be shipped off and hidden away in a secret school too? Oh no....that's right....they don't tarnish a teacher's/school's image do they?

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.

The amount of intolerance displayed here is astounding.

I agree with you - everyone can succeed. What I don't agree with are programs that are slogans and not a lot of substance. Children learn at many different levels and have a right to that education. Our state has the SOL program - Standards of Learning - it, in a nutshell, teaches children the material needed to pass the exams. I don't call that learning either. Teaching children to pass a test and provide a measurement by school isn't going to cut it in my book.

What about the creative side to learning? How about Art or Music? All of those programs are being eliminated too. Such a shame.

[Ian]

Well ... hold the phone, though. I mean I agree that every child who wants to learn should be given an opportunity to learn. No doubt about that.

Even if they'll never acheive to the level that others will, they should at least be given a fair chance to reach their full potential just like any other kid. My brother-in-law is mentally challenged and because he received an education he is able to at least hold down a modest job at a workshop. It makes him productive.

BUT ... and this is a big but ... if you either know full well that the child has no prayer of reaching minimal competency levels (which we all would have to admit is the case with many special needs children) or you know full well that the child has no interest in performing, then I sort of agree that teacher's shouldn't be held responsible for that.

I mean on some level parents and kids also have to be accountable for school performance. Me personally ... I think parents should be legally accountable for their child's school performance. Maybe that would make some of these disinterested parents sit up, take notice, and actually raise their kids instead of just ignoring them.

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else.