Obese kids in the UK are being taken away.

[Ian]

As a parent you buy the food....a 5 year old doesn't grocery shop....so you determine what your kid eats.If you feed him fried foods, fast food and junk food - you are the reason he is unhealthy and obese.

Well first off, last time I checked this was America ... if my kid wants to be fat, that's his or her choice.

Now obviously a 5 year old, yeah. I can control (to some degree) what they eat. But the definition of a "kid" normally runs up to 18. So where's the cutoff? Is it okay for your kid to be fat after 12, but not before??

And why should I accept your definition of obese for my children??

Honestly, I'm going to say that I am completely and totally floored that anyone thinks this is not only acceptable, but a good idea. George Orwell is rolling over in his grave somewhere.

Some folks need to look up the phrase "slippery slope" in the dictionary.

[Jeff G]

I saw a special on the BBC regarding another case where the British government stepped in and took a child into social services (I'm not sure what they term it is exactly) for being overweight.

When I first saw the headline of the special I thought no way should the government be stepping in on these cases. After watching the special though I agree 100% with the move based on the case that was covered. The child that was shown was extremly overwieght and the parents were allowing the kid to just keep eating. At age 7 he ate 6-7 meals every day and the portions would have had me full for an entire day. The goverment gave the family warnings which were not heeded and eventually they stepped in.


I guess this is a growing problem in the UK with obesse kids. The obesity is causing harm to the kids health with problems including diabetes, liver probelms and other medical complications. Abuse & neglect are both reasons for social services to get involved. This may not be physical abuse but if a child is allowed to cotinually over eat and cause harm to themselves it seems like abuse/neglect to me.

[Ian]

One last thing I'll add to this before I leave, because I've already gotten way too involved here ...

I may agree that it's more appropriate in the UK than it is here, because they have socialized medicine and individual health impacts the overall national well-being more than it does in the U.S.

That's it ... signing off now!

[Mrs. Bee]

Perhaps "useless" is a bit of a strong word, however, I would definitely say that for the money spent we don't get nearly enough back.

Another thing I thought of in regards to this ... who decides what's "obese" and what's not?? What if you don't agree with the government's definition of "obese" and they come to take your child away?

Heck, the medical community can't even come to a concensus on what is and isn't considered obese! Some people go by the BMI, some say BMI is too stringent, others have some totally different definition (like "stones" ).

My point is, everyone is so cavalier about it because it's not "their kids" ... the problem is, if you continue to let the government run every little facet of our lives, some day it could be "your kids."

I'll decide what's the right and wrong weight for my kids, thank you very much. I don't need some pencil pusher somewhere deciding for me.

Wow. You seem to have some strong feelings about social workers. I guess I just take it a little personally when someone essentially rips apart my field of study. Calls it useless and refers to us as "pencil pushers." But hey...that's just me. I choose to believe that social work is a very valid field. Also a very underappreciated and underpaid field.

I can see that a lot of people have strong feelings for social workers and a lot of it stems from what they see on TV and read in the papers.

There is a lot more to it than taking kids away from their parents. Who helps you fill out documents at the hospital? Yup. That's a usually a social worker. Who checks in on people who are mentally disabled that live on their own. Right again. A social worker. Who helps poor parents find work and housing so they can provide for their children. Bing! Social workers step in again.

My wife (Hi Honey) has done her stint in the industry and has some pretty good insight on what these hard working individuals do to make life better for people in difficult situations. They're not the monsters they're frequently made out to be.

Now Melanie Griffith. There's a monster.

Thanks, Graham! At least my hubby doesn't think my field is useless.

[Hammer]

In fact, if you read up on cases like the Woburn case (A Civil Action), you'll find out that it was mostly civilian defense attornies that brought the issue to light through litigation. The EPA came along and helped clean up the mess.

But they did help, though. I think this is a pretty good example.

Yeah me !

I did think of a few more when I was beating up my body on the elliptical machine (and Cheryl thought of the USDA grading of meat and produce), but as I also think this discussion has gotten a little out of hand, I'll refrain from posting them.

All I am saying that like most things in life there are positives and negatives to every situation. I do not believe that any government agency (local, state or federal) should make inflexible, blanket rules but should investigate complaints (home visits and the like). In the case of this story we do not know all the facts, only what the writer of the article wanted to present to support his/her viewpoint.

[BelleLovesTheBeast]

Well first off, last time I checked this was America ... if my kid wants to be fat, that's his or her choice.

Now obviously a 5 year old, yeah. I can control (to some degree) what they eat. But the definition of a "kid" normally runs up to 18. So where's the cutoff? Is it okay for your kid to be fat after 12, but not before??

And why should I accept your definition of obese for my children??

Honestly, I'm going to say that I am completely and totally floored that anyone thinks this is not only acceptable, but a good idea. George Orwell is rolling over in his grave somewhere.

Some folks need to look up the phrase "slippery slope" in the dictionary.

I'm not saying MY definition of fat....I'm saying the MEDICAL PROFESSION'S definition of obese.

I guess you do think people should be allowed to abuse their children too.

This is about a child's health....don't you think children have the right to be healthy? A parent shouldn't have the right to harm their children. I'm all for children getting to live a healthy and happy life! That's what this is all about.

So I guess you don't see my point!

[crazypoohbear]

I'm pretty sure the poster wasn't trying to imply that not spanking your kids turned them into brats.

I think he was merely using examples to illustrate a larger point.

Thanks Ian, my point was that when the government gets involved in personal family issues it becomes a mess!
"too many cooks spoil the soup"

But.... I'm a SHE ... Now calling me he is a sexist comment and gender biased and now I'll have to get the government involved to solve this issue

[tinkmommy]

It is a parents duty and obligation to feed their children. This does not mean allowing them to eat themselves to death.

For arguements sake let us assume that these children are overweight/morbidly obese primarily due to the food they ingest at home, and not because they are "big" for their age.

IMHO, these parents are abusing their children. They may not have black and blue bruises on their skin, but they are abused none the less. Children need to be protected from dangerous situations and these parents are placing these children in just such a situation. The evidence of this abuse is just a different type of scar. These cases are no different from the parents that slowly starve their children and claim they have eating disorders, only to gain weight once removed from their current evironment. This is just a more "acceptable" extreme.

[Dakota Rose]

No one has taken into account that in order for the social worker to get involved, someone would have had to report this family. That someone (a teacher, doctor, family member, etc) obviously has a concern for these kids. So maybe they truly are obese because of parental neglect.

I don't think we can call this abuse because that implies the parents are purposefully harming their children. But it's probably a case of neglect as the parents are either absent for much of the day allowing the kids to eat whatever/whenever, too busy to prepare healthy meals, too lax on eating habits or naive about diet and exercise.

Ian has good points though. Where do we draw the line? Child-rearing and diet are probably two of the most controversial issues in the world. There are so many differing opinions, guidelines, etc for each. Essentially, someone is always in the wrong.

In our school district, they're clamping down on what kind of snacks we can send to school with our kids. But the cafeteria is still serving popcorn chicken and fries (hello saturated fat). And the snack machines on campuses are still full of junk. It kind of feels like the district/gov't is saying "you parents don't know how to feed your kids, but we do."

[Mrs. Bee]

No one has taken into account that in order for the social worker to get involved, someone would have had to report this family. That someone (a teacher, doctor, family member, etc) obviously has a concern for these kids. So maybe they truly are obese because of parental neglect.

I don't think we can call this abuse because that implies the parents are purposefully harming their children. But it's probably a case of neglect as the parents are either absent for much of the day allowing the kids to eat whatever/whenever, too busy to prepare healthy meals, too lax on eating habits or naive about diet and exercise.

Ian has good points though. Where do we draw the line? Child-rearing and diet are probably two of the most controversial issues in the world. There are so many differing opinions, guidelines, etc for each. Essentially, someone is always in the wrong.

In our school district, they're clamping down on what kind of snacks we can send to school with our kids. But the cafeteria is still serving popcorn chicken and fries (hello saturated fat). And the snack machines on campuses are still full of junk. It kind of feels like the district/gov't is saying "you parents don't know how to feed your kids, but we do."

At least you can send a lunch to school with your kids. I never ate the school lunches growing up (yuck!)

[PirateLover]

This is such a sticky issue... I've seen cases like this on TV where the parents keep buying the horribly unhealthy food, preparing 10 meals a day etc and not thinking that anything is wrong...it's actually pretty scary, but in the end I don't think the solution is removing the child from the home.

As far as the social worker thing goes... I will say that yes I personally believe there is a valid need for this line of work BUT it needs to be reigned in a bit and I think it is too easy to blame media for painting a bad picture of social workers. I' heard a few first hand stories and was involved in one myself.

When I was 12, I did something very stupid. I made myself a cup of boiling hot soup. I placed the soup down on the computer table. I went to grab my headphones and the wire got caught up with the soup cup, knocking it over and giving me 2nd degree burns on both of my inner thighs. After I was released from the hospital, I had a follow up with a doctor 2 days later. After my check up, he made my parents leave the room and he brought in a social worker. For the next 20 minutes or so, I was made to repeat my story countless times as they intently listened for any loopholes. They were basically trying to get me to "admit" that my parents burned me on purpose and that I was abused. I was repeatedly asked if I had every been hit, tortured in anyway etc. The social worker even started to raise her voice to me at one point, insinuating that they could tell I was lying and reducing me to tears because I didn't understand what the heck was going on and why they didn't believe me. When they finally let me leave I was so afraid that I said something wrong and they would come after my parents because to me they still seemed very suspicious at the end of it all. Thankfully nothing else happened, but it was very scary for me.

For brevity's sake I won't go into details of other incidents, but I know someone who was removed from her grandparents' care and placed into foster care simply because a neighbor whom they were feuding with kept calling DHS on false reports, and a grown woman who had to fight a case of elderly abuse in courts because a social worker visited her father sick with cancer on a day when he soiled himself in his sleep and she hadn't had the chance to change him yet.

I know these are isolated incidents and they don't speak for all social workers/cases but it is from these experiences, not the media, that I've personally developed my somewhat distrusting opinion of social workers. I think this is one of those lines of work where it only takes a few bad incidents to mar the entire profession, my apologies to Mrs. Bee.

[Mrs. Bee]

This is such a sticky issue... I've seen cases like this on TV where the parents keep buying the horribly unhealthy food, preparing 10 meals a day etc and not thinking that anything is wrong...it's actually pretty scary, but in the end I don't think the solution is removing the child from the home.

As far as the social worker thing goes... I will say that yes I personally believe there is a valid need for this line of work BUT it needs to be reigned in a bit and I think it is too easy to blame media for painting a bad picture of social workers. I' heard a few first hand stories and was involved in one myself.

When I was 12, I did something very stupid. I made myself a cup of boiling hot soup. I placed the soup down on the computer table. I went to grab my headphones and the wire got caught up with the soup cup, knocking it over and giving me 2nd degree burns on both of my inner thighs. After I was released from the hospital, I had a follow up with a doctor 2 days later. After my check up, he made my parents leave the room and he brought in a social worker. For the next 20 minutes or so, I was made to repeat my story countless times as they intently listened for any loopholes. They were basically trying to get me to "admit" that my parents burned me on purpose and that I was abused. I was repeatedly asked if I had every been hit, tortured in anyway etc. The social worker even started to raise her voice to me at one point, insinuating that they could tell I was lying and reducing me to tears because I didn't understand what the heck was going on and why they didn't believe me. When they finally let me leave I was so afraid that I said something wrong and they would come after my parents because to me they still seemed very suspicious at the end of it all. Thankfully nothing else happened, but it was very scary for me.

For brevity's sake I won't go into details of other incidents, but I know someone who was removed from her grandparents' care and placed into foster care simply because a neighbor whom they were feuding with kept calling DHS on false reports, and a grown woman who had to fight a case of elderly abuse in courts because a social worker visited her father sick with cancer on a day when he soiled himself in his sleep and she hadn't had the chance to change him yet.

I know these are isolated incidents and they don't speak for all social workers/cases but it is from these experiences, not the media, that I've personally developed my somewhat distrusting opinion of social workers. I think this is one of those lines of work where it only takes a few bad incidents to mar the entire profession, my apologies to Mrs. Bee.

As you said...those were isolated incidents.

People really shouldn't base their opinions of an entire profession on a few incidents. I mean...if that were the case, people should hate pretty much ALL professions because bad things happen in all of them.

I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences. But there are countless others that have benefitted from the help of social workers.

[Carol]

MODERATOR ALERT

Hey all. If you want to banter back and forth with one another - please use the private message feature the site offers. That's why they are there.

This thread has gotten off topic many times throughout.

Let's move along ........

[Ian]

But.... I'm a SHE ... Now calling me he is a sexist comment and gender biased and now I'll have to get the government involved to solve this issue

Would you believe my "S" key is broken?

[Jenemmy]

I just think that anytime something like this pops up, we all have to take a step back and realize that we do not know everything that goes on in someone else's home. We don't have the whole story, we have a judgement call. We can't presume to know everything about a child or a parent with a glance.

I may be overly sensitive about this, because I have a non verbal child with autism. Believe me when I tell you that I have been on the receiving end of scrutiny and judgement on more than one occassion from people that just have NO idea, and from professionals who have decided that they know my child better than I do. When your entire life and love and soul is wrapped around your sweet kiddo, it is excruciatingly painful to bear the criticism of folks who don't live it and don't get it.

All I am saying is that we should defer to the old notion of not knowing someone until you walk a mile in their shoes.

[crazypoohbear]

Would you believe my "S" key is broken?

Okay, I'll buy that!

Now back on topic....
If the government takes away all the obese children how long before they come for the obese adults?? And, after they take away all the obese people how long before they come to take away the underweight people because being anorexic/bulimic causes health problems also. These health problems are just as costly as being obese.
Then after we get rid of the obese/underweight people and make the world better
Then...
it's time to come after the drinkers who are putting their health at risk, who decides how much is too much to drink?? Let's get them out of their homes as well.
Then
The people who over medicate themselves are causing more health problems as well!

All I remember is hearing the story
(I"M PARAPHRASING)
When they came for one groupI did not stand up because it was not me,Then they came and took away another group, I did nothing because it was not me, They came and took another group and I did nothing because it was not me.
By the time they came for me there was no one left to stand up for me!"

IS this really where we want this world to go...
AGAIN???

[alphamommy]

Someone commented on not knowing the size of the parents, so I did a little research on this (thanks, Google!), and discovered that the mom weighs 23 stone (23 X 14 = 322 lbs.), and the dad weighs 18 stone (18 X 14 = 252 lbs.).

The article where I found this (from the Mirror website) also states, "The Dundee family came to the attention of social services when they asked for help in caring for the kids, including the girl, three, who has developmental problems."

I have a hard time with this whole issue. I've seen parents on TV talk shows talking about how denying their child's wants would be like abusing them (so they feed them 3-4 Big Macs at a time), and I just don't get that. On the other hand, I was chubby for a long time, starting as a teenager, and I wouldn't blame my parents for it. I didn't like healthy food, and I didn't eat it when I could get away with it.

My own DD8 is on the thin side, and I swear I have been fighting to feed her since the day she was born. Sometimes, she eats like crazy, and others, I don't see how she can survive on how little she eats. Her doc says she's doing fine (50th percentile on weight, 75th on height).

I just hope things work out for all involved.

Tammy

[Jeri]

I think it is very scary to think that they would take your child away for being too fat. Will they also take them for too thin.

My 4 1/2 yr old is in the 50% for height but fell off the charts for weight a long time ago. When he was weighed last month he was only 31 pounds. He eats very healthy, and constantly all day long. We have been to GI doctors to make sure he was OK and he basically said he is very healthy, but he is so active we can not get more calories in then he burns daily. We have been told to feed him a diet high in fat,and calories along with all the good food to. He would eat fruit and raw veggies all day long if we let him.He has never had a PBJ sandwhich or any for that matter. He has never had bread because he refuses it.

So the thought of the goverment being able to take my child away because he isn't the right weight acording to there guidelines is terrible. I don't under feed my child or make him go without food.

[Disney Doll]

Okay, I'll buy that!
All I remember is hearing the story
(I"M PARAPHRASING)
When they came for one groupI did not stand up because it was not me,Then they came and took away another group, I did nothing because it was not me, They came and took another group and I did nothing because it was not me.
By the time they came for me there was no one left to stand up for me!"

IS this really where we want this world to go...
AGAIN???

The book is Terrible Things by Eve Bunting- a fabulous book for kids.

I have to chime in with my 2 cents- while I am not a social worker I was a foster parent. I can assure all of you who are up in arms over the government interfering that they really do not interfere as much as they probably should. Taking a child from their family (at least in the DHS system I worked with) really was a very last resort. These families are given every opportunity to improve the situation, too many opportunities if you ask me. I do not think the current child welfare system is the best, but I am definitely NOT in favor of scraping the whole system. Here's my general theory on government and why I support social services of any kind. I may be perfectly capable of raising my family and making good choices on my own accord as are many of you, BUT (and this is a very big but) many people in the world are too stupid to make good decisions for themselves- thus the government steps in. No it is not a good idea to feed your newborn watered down coke if you are out of formula, but that sadly is a real example. Every child has the right to health and safety. If the parent is not willing to take that responsibility seriously then yes remove the child even for obesity.

[DisneyDudet]

I am going to chime in on the BMI...

It has been touched on here, but the BMI does not take into consideration muscle mass. Now, take a a body builder, or wrestler. Say, they are about 5'11" or 6 foot tall. The quarterback in my high school was this tall, and 200 lbs. If we use those figures, the BMI of this person is around 27, which is considered Overweight. Now, when you see this wrestler or quarterback, you don't see overweight, do you? Most likely not. As what every trainer will tell you... "Muscle weighs more than fat." My BMI is slightly less at around 26, and I might be considered "average" by most people when you look at me, but I'm pretty short, and have some padding or fluff on me, but I do have some muscular legs. You would really need to measure your fat, not just numbers on the BMI. It does not take into consideration gender, and women WILL have more fat that men, but thats basic anatomy. There is a conversion for children and teens, which I'm not familiar with, but that does exist, and might be a little more accurate, since children tend to have less muscle mass, especially prior to puberty.

On that, I can say that I do not believe the BMI, and not just because it says I'm overweight, but because there are so many loopholes in it, I do not find it accurate.

With giving the title of the parents in the situation as "abusers," it depends on how they are treating their children. Are they FORCING them to eat fattening foods? Are they keeping them from being active? I mean, if someone doesn't want to play sports because they like piano, thats ok right? I guess not, but if you MADE your child play sports, you would be on the same end of the "abuser" title. If these parents are just not eating healthy all around, I think it would be a better situation if the whole family went to nutrition counseling and joined a gym or get-fit program. I just don't see that the story we were given gives us enough information to make an informed decision as to if this is an appropriate action to be taken.

I might be extreme here, but if letting your child over-eat is abuse, then is an adult eating to the point of morbid obesity self-mutilation, or something worse? I don't know.

And let's not forget, that there are some medical problems and genetics linked to obesity. The most common is Cushing's, which is an over production and excretion of cortisol.

OK, off my