Having doubts about owning DVC

[locutus]

I know many of you have had the DVC for a long time. I myself have been a member for 5 years now and am having some real second thoughts about it. What once seemed like a good move no longer seems that. I just arrived from Disney and while there spoke to a lot of people down there. I spoke to a couple people with families who were there and the topic of DVC was brought up ( by them asking if I was a member and if I would recomend it). At first I said I loved it but after talking to them started having second thoughts. I paid $1400 in member fees this year. On this trip I also paid $611 for the dining plan for 6 nights ( 2 adults 2 kid ). One guy said he bought a package with Disney for 7 nights, 2 adults, 3 kids, WITH the dining plan included and and paid $1625. I now ask whats the benifits of being a member when non members can get rooms and they throw in dining for free, and as members we pay a premium of maint. fees and have to pay ourselves for dining ( or admission tickets depending on what Disney promotion is running). I would love to get some opinions from you on why I (or we ) should still stay members. After paying $25000 for my points and such high maint. fees I cant see the benifits on staying a member, when non members can just buy packages that include such perks for almost what im paying yearly in fees. Thank you.

[MidnTPK]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

[Tinkermom]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

VERY well said!

[BigRedDad]

The only way DVC is worth it is if you do not need the up front money. In your case, the $25,000. After that, it starts to get into a lot of statistics that can make the argument for both sides. I think I did a cost analysis on this about 2 years ago. With all common assumptions out there (10% gains per year, etc, etc, etc), that $25,000 would be worth almost $3M over 50 years. Even if it were only $10,000, it would be worth $1.2M over 50 years.

What you need to ask yourself is whether or not the initial money is "throw-away" money? In other words, is your family's well-being and your retirement fully funded without that money? If the answer is no, then DVC or any timeshare is not worth it.

[DISNEYFIX]

The only way DVC is worth it is if you do not need the up front money. In your case, the $25,000. After that, it starts to get into a lot of statistics that can make the argument for both sides. I think I did a cost analysis on this about 2 years ago. With all common assumptions out there (10% gains per year, etc, etc, etc), that $25,000 would be worth almost $3M over 50 years. Even if it were only $10,000, it would be worth $1.2M over 50 years.

What you need to ask yourself is whether or not the initial money is "throw-away" money? In other words, is your family's well-being and your retirement fully funded without that money? If the answer is no, then DVC or any timeshare is not worth it.

This might be the wrong time to make the economic argument. When I bought DVC I received $30,000 of value for my money the same $30,000 in some IRA is now worth about $15,000. Al least the way I feel about makes me feel better, and as I have out at BCV and VWL.

[Mousemates]

Buyers remorse is a common response that can come into play after most any major purchase. And I can certainly see where you are coming from in terms of frustration that seems to flow from others getting discounts that are not made availalbe to you.

However, i think you are comparing apples to oranges in more than one way (i.e. comparing a stay in a super nice suite at a DVC property with a stay in a motel room (value resort). And that is in comparing what you pay in fees/costs plus your $25,000 initial investment to what someone else pays per year for a disney vacation package.

At this point you pretty much have to pull the $25,000 out of the equation...its a sunk cost that you can't fully get back(if I understand the dynamics of selling your DVC interests....if your going to do math at this point you need to do it based on the discounted value (the amount you could if you sold out) not the full amount invested. most likely if you do that math, then a move back to non-dvc doesn't make that much sense on a cost basis.

In the end, I 've learned that for me the best thing to do after a major purchase is purposefuly ignore commercial/economic changes that occur after the fact (like the cash for clunker program that could have saved me an extra $4500 on a new car purcahse) and simply enjoy what I've already paid for...focusing on the reasons i bought it in the first place...in your case, to have a very nice WDW vacation at least once a year.

[seanyred]

I look at it this way. What would my trip cost me to pay out pocket? In other words 9 Nights at Kidani paying cash vs. my DVC Fees/Dues...I don't know the exact amount but I know I'm saving money. Also after you get the loan payed off and all you have his Annual Dues you will be paying a lot less than the person paying cash.

[dlpmikki]

In the current economic climate it would be amazing if Disney were not offering deals to get rooms filled. I somehow doubt that those deals will be available for all the years you are a member. It's a gamble. Mine paid off years ago but it would take a lot longer at DVC prices today.

[Ian]

Eh ... I mean it's easy to get distracted along the way by "shiny baubles" like free dining, but remember that the economy is in the tank right now. That guy is not going to pay $1,600 next year for the same package I can tell you that. But you know what you'll be paying.

Also, what kind of room did that guy have? I guarantee it isn't a 2BR suite like what I have at SSR right now.

You can't just look at the negatives. You have to consider the whole picture.

[locutus]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

Thanks for all the responses. MidnTPK--I know it is rare but one of the guys I spoke to actually had a better room than me. He said he was contacted a week before the trip and was upgraded to a 1 bedroom villa at SSR. Ionly had a studio. He didnt have theme park tickets but I didnt even include that cost to me either in the initial post. And as it was mentioned that the dining plan probably wouldnt be included next year,your right...it probably wont be. BUT this has been the 3rd. summer that Disney has offered perks. The last 2 years theme park admissions were included. They werent icluded this year. Instead they offered dining. I can see what others say about over time the club works out, but after 5 years im still waiting to see the savings. True you can choose higher end accomodations but to be honest...when im there I use my room to shower and sleep. I dont need a garden view or lake view. give me a clean room and AC and im happy. Im just saying members should be given something special. Even if its discounted dining or tickets. Give us a reason to be proud DVC members. O yea...the guy who got the upgrade, had his room made up everyday. Im there a week and i just got clean towels after 4 days. sorry i keep ranting.

[VWL Mom]

I think upgrades are great and am always happy to sense the excitement of the people who get them. That being said, from a DVC point of view I too was concerned reading a post a while back of values w/free dining being upgraded to 1bdrm at SSR & OKW. I know many of you are in contact with your sales reps, did this ever come up?

[MidnTPK]

I think upgrades are great and am always happy to sense the excitement of the people who get them. That being said, from a DVC point of view I too was concerned reading a post a while back of values w/free dining being upgraded to 1bdrm at SSR & OKW. I know many of you are in contact with your sales reps, did this ever come up?

I'm in a tough love mood today.

Whether or or not the Walt Disney Company chose to transfer some of its resort guests from its parks & resorts division to its vacation ownership division is none of your business. Just like you have no restriction on who occupies your unit during your DVC reservation, Disney has no restriction on who it can put into (and how much it may charge for) the units that it still owns. At SSR, I see how this is an issue because DVC still has so many more units it can sell before the resort is sold out.

Which is not to say DVC would be deaf to member complaints....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.

[Hammer]

At SSR, I see how this is an issue because DVC still has so many more units it can sell before the resort is sold out.

Which is not to say DVC would be deaf to member complaints....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.

I am agreeing with much of what you have posted, but have to make a minor correction. DVC sold out of the original offering for SSR (I know it was posted on here at some point). They added memberships when they added the treehouse villas, so there are "new" memberships to be purchased.

[VWL Mom]

....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.

Oh, so that's why they have a for sale sign on their front lawn.

I totally get what you are saying. For me it is about the how much, not the who. I'll still be a bit upset if they start upgrading to 2bdrms for less than my annual dues.

Until then I remain quite pleased with my purchase. Put that together with my AP & TIW card I'm a pretty happy camper.

[MidnTPK]

Im just saying members should be given something special. Even if its discounted dining or tickets.

DVC members are your volume, premier customers - your diamond club frequent flyers (if you will). They should be receiving the everyday ammenties cheaper than everyone else. The discounts that are currently offered to DVC members are for things that most members will not even take part in. The value needs to be placed where members can take advantage of it most. Otherwise, what's the financial bennifit of returning to Disney year over year?

Ok..it's time for some tough love for you two.

The reality is that you bought a timeshare, not a club membership. As much as DVC (and many other vacation clubs) tries to hide it, you bought the right to annually use a unit in a multifamily dwelling for a predetermined period of time. DVC has hidden this fact behind a lot of flexibility, but the fact remains, that's what you bought.

You'd be right to expect things like park ticket or dining discounts, if you had bought into a discount club, but you didn't. You bought a timeshare managed by the Walt Disney Company.

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

Timeshare salespeople are some of the best, most seductive salespeople out there. They sold you value and how much money you'd save.....which is true....but the saving will likely come much further down the road than you expect...and it will only be on the accommodations portion of your vacation.

So why buy in at all? Why give up the opportunity to take advantage of discounts? Because in the long run you get nicer than typical accommodations at a reasonable and predictable price. You never know what the price of a WDW vacation will be in 2015, or what discounts will or won't be offered. By owning the accommodations portion of that future trip, you have some protection against inflation.

Personally, I bought my first timeshare because I wanted Atlantis to be an important part of my life going forward, and I knew from running the numbers that it made a nice annual family vacation an affordable luxury...and one I am required to put in my family's budget every year. That's why the DVC will be part of my life in the future.

If after reading this you realize that the DVC is not for you....you shouldn't feel like a traitor. You might prefer the opportunity to get discounts over the things that the DVC has to offer. Fortunately for you in this scenario DVC has a very active aftermarket.

[diz_girl]

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

I guess that one way that they'll know that they aren't keeping their owners minimally satisfied is if a lot of existing owners compain that because of their dissatisfaction they won't be buying add-on points, will tell people that DVC is a bad deal and, and are considering selling their membership. Yes, they'll be able to sell points to new owners, but I think that they sell a decent amount of add-on points to existing members and without that revenue stream, it will take longer to sell a resort. Bad word-of-mouth can also make it harder to sell points at the rate that they want (which I think is quickly).

They'll also need to give some discounts to existing members in order to lure new members, since everyone wants a discount, so they'll probably always have some discounts.

[MarkC]

I can understand your concern about whether its a good deal for you. Do this.

Figure out what you would have paid to stay at a Deluxe resort for the DVC trips you've taken the last 5 years. How much would you have spent already? Also figure there's a good chance had you invested that money 5 years ago it would have less value than your original investment.

Next, figure what the cost of a room will be in 25-30 years. Will it be $800-$1000 per night? You will still only be paying maintenance fees. Also, look at how many times you like to vacation at WDW. Is it worth it to you?

Maybe you should consider selling about half your points. You would still have your timeshare for some vacations but would generate some cash and cut your maintenance fees in half as well.

And lastly, its an individual decision. All of us posters can give you our opinion but only you can decide what works best for you. I can tell you what I would do but everyone is different, so best of luck to you. Mark

[FutureCorpsFan]

Ok..it's time for some tough love for you two.

The reality is that you bought a timeshare, not a club membership. As much as DVC (and many other vacation clubs) tries to hide it, you bought the right to annually use a unit in a multifamily dwelling for a predetermined period of time. DVC has hidden this fact behind a lot of flexibility, but the fact remains, that's what you bought.

You'd be right to expect things like park ticket or dining discounts, if you had bought into a discount club, but you didn't. You bought a timeshare managed by the Walt Disney Company.

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

Timeshare salespeople are some of the best, most seductive salespeople out there. They sold you value and how much money you'd save.....which is true....but the saving will likely come much further down the road than you expect...and it will only be on the accommodations portion of your vacation.

So why buy in at all? Why give up the opportunity to take advantage of discounts? Because in the long run you get nicer than typical accommodations at a reasonable and predictable price. You never know what the price of a WDW vacation will be in 2015, or what discounts will or won't be offered. By owning the accommodations portion of that future trip, you have some protection against inflation.

Personally, I bought my first timeshare because I wanted Atlantis to be an important part of my life going forward, and I knew from running the numbers that it made a nice annual family vacation an affordable luxury...and one I am required to put in my family's budget every year. That's why the DVC will be part of my life in the future.

If after reading this you realize that the DVC is not for you....you shouldn't feel like a traitor. You might prefer the opportunity to get discounts over the things that the DVC has to offer. Fortunately for you in this scenario DVC has a very active aftermarket.

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS." Vegas is one place that you can get severe discounts on dining and attractions even if you are not staying at a resort. And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.

[Ian]

As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.

Yeah ... see I sort of agree with you on this. The mantra of a lot of folks is "Oh once you buy DVC they have your money and they don't care about you." and that may actually be the way Disney feels.

But if that's so, that's very, very unwise. First off, DVC members tend to be their most loyal customers. That means they're the most likely to have high expectations as to how they're treated by the company. They also tend to be very vocal ... they talk to other people about their memberships, Disney theme parks, and their Disney experiences in general. Many times, they do it on the Internet on boards just like this one. And we have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide audience. You complain here and tens of thousands of people could see it.

Second, I can't believe that word of mouth isn't a big way Disney drives DVC sales. Folks with money to buy into DVC tend to move in social circles with other folks who have money to buy DVC. If they have a bad experience, they're going to talk their friends out of buying instead of becoming advocates for the program.

Lastly, as someone mentioned above, you don't have to use your points at Disney. There are literally hundreds of other reasonable options. So if members don't get treated right, they might just go off to other places and take their dollars for merch, food, park admission, etc. with them.

[MidnTPK]

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything.

Yes, you are locked in. If you don't pay your dues, you'll not have the DVC for very long.

Your personal occupation of your unit is another story. But from Disney's perspective, they don't care. You can occupy it, rent it out, or swap it within the DVC for something else. Either way, they have locked in customers in that unit until the end of the DVC lease.

Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."

Resell: another family takes over your usage and dues. No change for Disney.

And that swap within DVC is a great deal for Disney. If you don't occupy that room, they can sell it as a regular hotel room and make far more revenue on it than if you had occupied it. That's why the best use of points is at DVC resorts. anything else and the DVC member is taking a material hit on the value of their points that year.

And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.

Yes, your dollars are going somewhere else. But Disney is replacing you with someone else and their dollars are being spent at WDW.

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost.

Yes, and this is what I meant by minimal. And other have added that DVC keeps the quality up to help sales to existing members.

Anyway, I was communicating a little harshly in that post to get my point across. Previous posters were upset that they weren't getting the discounts or perks that non-members were getting. They were misunderstanding what they had bought into. I was offering some tough love so that they have a better feeling for what they have and what they'll get in the future, rather than be upset every year.

You should notice that I'm a fan of DVC. It offers a good value for the annual deluxe WDW visitor. But others might be getting sold a bill of goods that there's this miraculous saving associated with the DVC. That's never going to be what the DVC is because of the nature of the enterprise.