This is just wrong, are they doing this in your school district?

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Originally Posted by Princess'Mom

What about the creative side to learning? How about Art or Music? All of those programs are being eliminated too. Such a shame.

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Tough call ... I'm not 100% sure that these programs should really be taught at taxpayer expense.

Maybe we should eliminate those type of programs from schools entirely, focus only on the fundamentals of education, and leave responsibility for music and art classes to the parents.

I mean if I want my kid to play piano, should I really expect other taxpayers to foot the bill? Maybe I should just send them to piano lessons? Like it or not, the truth is that very few kids get anything out of those classes.

I was in the school band for four years ... trust me ... I know.

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Originally Posted by Ian

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else.

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...never thought I'd say this.....but, I completely agree. :blush:

....and if the teacher is not accountable for the poorly performing child, regardless of the reason, then neither should the teacher take credit for the gifted child. Gotta love mediocrity. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Mickey'sGirl

Gotta love mediocrity. :thumbsup:

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Elasta-Girl: Everybody's special, Dash.

Dash: Which is just another way of saying no one is ....

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Originally Posted by Mickey'sGirl

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.

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Although I don't diagree that all students can succeed, I don't believe all students can succeed at the same level at the same time. Unfortunately those are the expectation of NCLB at least in the State of Georgia. Most of the teachers I work with (and we don't have a teacher's union) have no problem with being measured..because actually NCLB measure the school not the individual teacher. The problem is the expectations of NCLB are unreasonable....the idea that 100% of the students will pass the high school graduation test within the next several years regardless of their disability is just plain.....stupid. Students should be measured on their improvement and progress not on a predetermined score on a test they take on week during their high school career.

ITA agree with you Jen. And I also believe it really does take a (yes I'm going to say it) Villiage. I considered becoming an education major, but decided against it b/c I didn't want to deal with the awful parents (one bad parent to me would have been enough to where I ran away, I was a nanny and had great parents to work for). Teachers don't like NCLB b/c it's just one more thing put on them and they are grossly underpaid as it is. Luckily we have someone in command that I truly believe is heading us in a better direction. Things are never perfect, but they have to get better.

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Originally Posted by Ian

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else.

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I too, agree. If the importance of education is not enforced at home, where is the child supposed to get it?

I guess I should have been more specific when I said not every child can succeed. What I meant, as some of you have pointed out, is that not every child can get a high school diploma, based on the current criteria. In my state, that includes a graduation exam. Some of them, no matter how hard they try, will not pass it. Yet, our school is judged on that. That is what I hear other teachers complain about the most with NCLB. Also, just wanted to point out that testing and accountability didn't start with NCLB, just the 100% part.

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Originally Posted by RocknBev

Students should be measured on their improvement and progress not on a predetermined score on a test they take on week during their high school career.

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ITA. Very well said!

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Originally Posted by murphy1

Teachers don't like NCLB b/c it's just one more thing put on them and they are grossly underpaid as it is.

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Uh ... not all teachers are grossly underpaid. I know high school teachers with a decent tenure in our school district are pulling down $80-$90k a year.

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

Honestly, I don't really buy the "teachers are underpaid" argument. Teachers are paid what the market will bear and most of them have benefits that are far in excess of industry standards.

The truth is, when you go in to a job where the taxpayers are footing the bill, you have to expect to be paid a modest salary. No one twists anyone's arm and makes them become a teacher. Heck, State Senators probably make less money than a lot of teachers do.

Wow! That is great money, Ian! Ours start out only about a little less than 40, High school teachers make around 50 starting out.

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Originally Posted by Mickey'sGirl

....and if the teacher is not accountable for the poorly performing child, regardless of the reason, then neither should the teacher take credit for the gifted child.

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I think we're talking about different things. IMO, we're confusing capability with capacity. Some people are just never going to learn to the same extent as others. I think of that more as a measurement of IQ. How you learn what you can is different, and it's entirely possible for a high IQ person (which would make them gifted) to have difficulty learning certian ways. It may take a different approach. With others, generally lower IQ, you reach a point where no matter what methods used, it's just not going to sink in. Those are the ones that we're probably wasting money on.

The teacher really has nothing to do with either. I've seen/experienced teachers who loath the gifted programs and do everything they can to keep/get kids out.

Doesn't matter much anymore, gifted/talented is usually the first to go anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ian

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

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Show me a teacher that only works 9 months a year, and I'd agree.

As a teacher, I would much rather get rid of the school nurses than have my class size jump from 20-30 kids. Imagine trying to teach 30 five year olds!? I work at a private school, and we don't have a school nurse. We have to take first aid classes. If a kid in my class has an allergic reaction I know how to give an epi-pen shot, and I take temperatures of kids when they aren't feeling well. It can be done, and it was done that way when I was in school.

Ian- I didn't look at where you are from, but teachers in GA don't make that much...maybe if you are a principal with a doctorate and have been in the system for 30 years you may make that much, but the average is about $50,000 I think. Of course Georgia doesn't have a teacher's union.

As a teacher, my problems with NCLB come from judging a whole year on one test. I think teachers should be held accountable, but I think there has to be a better way.

Also, it isn't fair to expect some schools to continue to improve every year. The elementary school we are districted to had a 98% "pass" rate last year which means that even most of the special needs kids acheieved the goals. Yet next year they have to have more kids "pass" or they will be put on the risk list. However, another school in the district may only have 40% of the kids "pass" and if they have 41% next year they will be labeled as meeting adequate yearly progress. That to me is flawed.

I once read a story which I think sums up a teacher's struggles. Here is a summary....

A business man is talking to a group of teachers about how to be successful. He is the owner of an ice cream company that makes the best strawberry ice cream. After he gets done speaking, a teacher in the audience stood up and asked, "What would you do if you got a shipment of strawberries that were bruised and in bad shape?" The business man said, "I would send them back of course! I would never use bruised fruit in my award winning ice cream!" The teacher replied, "That's the difference between the business world and teaching. We can't "send back" bruised students. It is our job to teach all kids that come into our classroom, from the student who doesn't speak any English when he walks into our classroom to the child who is being physically abused at home to the student with severe learning disabilities. We have to use any fruit that is sent to us, and still make good ice cream."

Just something to think about.

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Originally Posted by Ian

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

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I WISH!! I taught for 5 years and NEVER worked for just 9 months of the year!!!

And, the $80-90K figures are WAAY off from the national average.

I want to know where it is that all these teachers are only working for 9 months! I keep hearing that from people who aren't teachers, and I would like to know so I could go there too! Lol! Actually, I would like to teach where you only work 9 months and get to go to the bathroom too.

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Originally Posted by Ian

Uh ... not all teachers are grossly underpaid. I know high school teachers with a decent tenure in our school district are pulling down $80-$90k a year.

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

Honestly, I don't really buy the "teachers are underpaid" argument. Teachers are paid what the market will bear and most of them have benefits that are far in excess of industry standards.

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Here, there are 3rd year teachers making less than $40,000/yr. We live in a city with a pretty high cost of living. I can't speak for retirement benifits, but I know their health benifits are not anything worth taking a lower paying job for. I believe our teachers should make more, you want quality work, you need to give quality pay. These are the teachers of our future. I'm sure that right now the people who have chosen teaching as a career have done so, not for the money(obviously) but because they truely want to be teachers. But when they are being streched so thin, with the decline of ancillary staff and don't have the supplies they need ( due to budget cuts) and then are having trouble making ends meet. I'm sure that can cause burn out.

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Originally Posted by Kenny1113

I'm sure that right now the people who have chosen teaching as a career have done so, not for the money(obviously) but because they truely want to be teachers.

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Actually, I have seen the opposite for the most part. I know a few people whose chose teaching as their career from the get go, but I know at least twice as many that wanted to switch after their first choice failed. I really think they thought "Oh, it'll be easy, and I'll only have to work 9 months a year!". I laughed to myself when they then returned, complaining about the process they needed to go through to become a teacher. The schooling, certification process, the additional schooling (masters degree), etc, the long hours, the low pay, the lack of respect from parents/students, buying much of their own supplies, etc.

I am pretty peeved about the cuts in art and music, I played flute from third grade up to college. One of my friends is in NJ and fighting for recess, whcih should automatically be there! We are so fortunate that our County has many, many involved parents, I volunteer at the school and library, I love it, but I know it's for the kids and I love our teachers.

First off let me say that I hate NCLB. And no, I'm not a teacher.

Here's a couple of things that you might not know about NCLB. First, this is NOT measuring teachers it is measuring the schools progress. It's not even measuring a child progress. What NCLB does is measure (for example) last year's third graders scores with this year's third graders scores and then next year's third grader scores with this years third graders scores. That's like comparing a pro football team from one year to the next when it loses all it's players and starts over. Is that fair?

Second, they break the scores out into subgroups and if your district doesn't meet their standards in even one subgroup then the district will be on a watch list or lose funding. So if you have a child that is hispanic, low-income, and in special ed, that child's score will COUNT in all three of those subgroups. In other words that score gets counted three times. But the white, middle-income, average student's score only gets counted ONCE because white, middle-income and average are NOT sub-categories.

I could go on there are a lot more examples like this. I hope that you can see why teachers and well informed people don't like NCLB.

I'm also a teacher. I teach HS Spanish and Yearbook at a small private school in middle TN. And it's okay... many of my students even think things are as posted above. They think that because they pay tuition, I should be rich. Well, I make a whopping $19,000/yr. salary, and this is my 4th year of teaching! Technically my family qualifies for gov't help (that we don't take)... what does that say about teachers?
BTW, there's no such thing as a retirement fund where I work. My health ins. is paid for me, but if I choose to add my family to the policy, it's $300+/pay period. Subtract that from 19,000 and see what you get.
Oh, I've never worked for only 9 months. Yes, we do get holidays and the summer off, but for those of you that don't, what do you take with you when you leave work? Your umbrella and purse/briefcase? I took home a 5-in. stack of papers to grade last night. Not to mention that 4 weeks of my summer vacation is going to be spent at the school teaching summer school, with another 2 spent getting things ready for next year's yearbook staff.
And don't get me started on class size, I'll be teaching Spanish 2 to a class of 33 next year! But I don't dare complain; I've also been asked to teach one Science class, to keep from hiring another teacher.
Cut-backs are being discussed, but I'm fairly safe, as we must offer foreign language. And I don't know many tri-lingual people who'll work for my pay...
However, my students are correct, I am rich. I get to see the light in their eyes when a concept finally gets through. I am the winner of their love when I give up a Friday night to watch them ride barrels at the local arena, or a Saturday afternoon to see them perform in a 4-H fashion show. I get to spend hours a day with kids that I know more about than most of their parents. I get to be the answer when somewhere down the line someone asks who made a difference in their lives.
No. I don't do it for the money or the days off; I do it for the "benefits."

I am very surpised that some schools don't have nurses. My 2 boys go to a district that has 15 schools ( Kindergarten to Highschool) and each school has a full time RN.
The district also has a main district wide Autism/ Aspergers specialist, along with one for each grade catagory. Preschool-Kindergarten,Elementary,Middle school, and Highschool. They also have many teachers, and special ed staff trained in dealing with with many special needs.
This is one of the main reasons we picked this district for our kids.
They have fairly small class sizes, and all teachers are required to already have or be getting their masters degree.

I know there are only 22 kids in my sons kindergarten class now and it looks like his first grade class will be between 11 to 15 kids.

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Originally Posted by murphy1

Wow! That is great money, Ian! Ours start out only about a little less than 40, High school teachers make around 50 starting out.

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Sure, but actually I think that's really good money for "just starting out."

I mean the national average for median income is like $40k a year, so they're basically starting out at average and going up from there.

Also, bear in mind that cost-of-living is very different in different parts of the country so that $40k they're making could very well be even better that it sounds compared with the $80k - $90 in the Northeast where cost-of-living is really expensive.

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Originally Posted by DizneyRox

Show me a teacher that only works 9 months a year, and I'd agree.

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Well by the same token, show me anyone in the business world who works a 40 hour work week. Everyone has to go above and beyond on their jobs. That's just a part of the deal.

But bottom line is teachers are required to be doing classroom teaching 9 months out of the year. That's undeniable, unless you're in a district that has year-round education.

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Originally Posted by Georgesgirl1

Ian- I didn't look at where you are from, but teachers in GA don't make that much...maybe if you are a principal with a doctorate and have been in the system for 30 years you may make that much, but the average is about $50,000 I think. Of course Georgia doesn't have a teacher's union.

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Okay, but I mean ... $50 grand a year in Georgia, where the cost of living is lower, is pretty darn good.

I mean what do you guys think teacher's should make? Personally, I think $50,000 to $70,000 is more than a fair wage.

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Originally Posted by IloveJack

I'm also a teacher. I teach HS Spanish and Yearbook at a small private school in middle TN. And it's okay... many of my students even think things are as posted above. They think that because they pay tuition, I should be rich. Well, I make a whopping $19,000/yr. salary, and this is my 4th year of teaching!

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You can't compare private school to public school, though. It's apples and oranges.

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Oh, I've never worked for only 9 months. Yes, we do get holidays and the summer off, but for those of you that don't, what do you take with you when you leave work? Your umbrella and purse/briefcase? I took home a 5-in. stack of papers to grade last night.

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Ummm ... with all due respect, this made me laugh out loud.

Last night I took my laptop and PDA home with me and worked my tail off until 9:30 at night, which is pretty much what I do three or four nights a week for 12 months of the year. And I frequently work 8-10 hours on the weekends, as well.